01/23/2008 10:32:54

K-15, do tell us, have you been back to Cambodia ...

01/23/2008 09:19:09

Hello KSaron,

Remember what you told me once, in kc, why people wanted me to discourage me from posting there? In almost six years at kc, this happened to me once in the last year. It is interesting that, this time, it took a mere two months.

Gnome may have a point when he wrote
the intention of having such a column is obviously to reach uninformed visitors about cambodia and maybe engage them enough so that they can participate. but what if it does the opposite and quite frankly turn people off when reading such negativity, won't it then contradict the whole purpose of having such a column?

He is entitled to his opinion but I did not think that this last column was negative. It was trying to search for ideas to build on. Unfortunately, the last discussion focused on issues of corruption based on one person’s perception of my columns. Nevertheless, I hope that people who are curious enough to invest the time to click on columns they know to be written by a non rah-rah person will be fair-minded enough not to hold it against the writer when they do not agree with him.

Having said that, while myP1t is much more than its columns and especially its Cambodia columns, it should not be an arty movie theater featuring French movies which leave a few members of the audience depressed at the exit. Maybe myP1t aspires to be a cinema complex featuring Hollywood, Bollywood and other genres as well.

I am sure that myP1t’s administrators have a vision of what kind of site they want to be.

01/23/2008 05:38:49

I know there are some good things that are happening in Cambodia.  A Chinese man listed 10 things.  It is a great feeling to hear about those good things but let us not kid with ourselves.  When a country uses the year zero to gauge itself that right there is progress already but is that what we want to be our standard? 

 

Cambodia is a country teaches and value corruption.  Everywhere and a lot are behaving in such manner.  Yes, we can not blame them for trying to put food in their mouth but it still doesn’t make it acceptable.

 

For Cambodia I have always bank on HOPE but hope without direction is even deadlier.  Those that are corrupt and oppressing love to see the word progress written.  They love the positive reports because these are the things that shield them from the real truth.  The more we talk about progress the more legit we make them to be.  IMO, we are the auditors.   What we (not just here on P1T) say can mean money in their pocket.

 

Everyone is entitled to write in anyway they choose.  Whether it be positive, neutral or negative it is our choice.  What is important is what we are trying to convey? 

 

Blackcoffee, why are you trying to discourage K15 from writing?  Again, debate the topic not the writer.    

01/23/2008 04:31:22

Gnome,

Thank you for your input.

You wrote:

but smacking it in people's face may not be the most effective way. maybe the p1t columnist and p1t admins should reconsider toning it down. if people like ladym and ahmom finds it a bit hard to swallow, who knows how many other people we've alienated by being too candid.

I cannot speak for Myp1t’s administrators.

Speaking for myself, I have toned down. If you have read my posts in kc for the past five years, you would know that I am less passionate, much less colorful than I used to be.

On the other hand, I am not a politician. I am not John McCain and change my views to be acceptable. I cannot be someone I am not. Ever since I joined kc and mow myP1t, I have always been very candid with my views, my limitations, my lapses. The only thing I would not be forthcoming with is my private life.

I have never posed as an expert. I have never claimed to know more than anybody.

All I can offer is my views, excessively candid (in your opinion) but IMO, part of me, warts and all.

MyP1t is so much, much more than the P1t columns or specifically the Cambodia columns. It’s already an embarrassment of riches.

How does anybody feel alienated by reading a few lousy paragraphs written by a too candid (in your opinion) but, using the accurate words of Soch, whose candor and courage I have always admired, a “predominantly negative” yours truly?

In fact, soch has already stated that “myp1t would be more than happy to offer the column structure to anyone who would like to offer a differing/alternate view on the conditions of our beloved homeland.”

The opportunity has always been there through threads which, in fact, are better than blogs in facilitating discussions because they rotate.

01/23/2008 04:27:36

Lady M,

Business owners in Cambodia have two choices with regarding to taxes;
(a) pay the higher level of taxes, all of which goes to the government
(b) pay a lower level of taxes to the government + a bribe to the tax assessor

(b) is lower than (a) and almost everyone chooses (b). The difference between (a) and (b) will not make the businessman’s family starve. It only means that his profit is higher with (b).

Is he a victim or a participant in a corrupt practice?

Yes, let’s agree to disagree on whether only receivers or both receivers and participants are corrupt.

01/23/2008 01:32:45

ladym,

thank you for responding back, you've made some excellent points here, that, sometimes, even in the best of us, we tend to overlook these things. it's true that i did not think about the impact our writings may have on future audiences, whether it may be new inquiring minds of future generations or the honest-good-working joe in cambodia and how they would feel if this is all we can say about them. when we repeat each other of the same ideas, of how bad it is in cambodia, unintentionally, we may be discouraging instead of encouraging people to have hope, who may one day lend a helping hand. if this is the case, we then need to go back and question what is our objective of having such discussions and columns.

the purpose of having such a website as myp1t.com, hopefully, is to educate others of who we are and where we come from, and especially to connect us together. like a coffee shop, the site can serve as a foundation where people can meet and generate and discuss new ideas. when myp1t came out with its first column "changing cambodia" by khemara15 i was ecstatic, for it is the first of its kind especially from a cambodian website. the intention of having such a column is obviously to reach uninformed visitors about cambodia and maybe engage them enough so that they can participate. but what if it does the opposite and quite frankly turn people off when reading such negativity, won't it then contradict the whole purpose of having such a column?

however, i feel that the majority of the people do not fully understand the situation in cambodia. an example of this would be a member of kc "claypotmonkey" who uses "he
could be a nice guy" as an argument to support sok an being in the
parade. if we don't talk about these "negative stuff" people won't ever know about them, and what happens when there are more of the like of claypotmonkey?

either some people are totally oblivious to the situation in cambodia or they are sick and tired of the hearing the same old and same old and they just ignore it. i cannot say which is the problem. and sometimes i just feel like people in general do not care about these things. i'm thinking maybe 5% of the population genuinely care and the rest just play the political correctness game or just straight out proclaim they don't care about cambodia or suffering cambodians.

soch is quite adamant about projecting the truths about cambodia, but smacking it in people's face may not be the most effective way. maybe the p1t columnist and p1t admins should reconsider toning it down. if people like ladym and ahmom finds it a bit hard to swallow, who knows how many other people we've alienated by being too candid.

(on a side note, ladym, yes you did say buddhist identify us as khmer, i stand corrected.)  

01/23/2008 00:28:10

K15,

If you've never been to Cambodia, please quit this column, because it doesn't look too good on you personally as a columnist.

01/23/2008 00:25:54

Let's be honest with ourselves. We all do many things for money. I doubt Soch would love her present counselling job if she was not paid for it. we are not children here...let's see things for what they are, say what they are. Come down here, and help Cambodia become less "corrupt and slutty".

01/23/2008 00:22:33

I would be first to scream, that Cambodia is full of dictators, abusers blah blah, but I would also like to say that Cambodia is also full of many wonderful things, too. Let's be more balanced in our culumns!

Soch, don't you think your perception of Cambodia is a little messed up as well?

I warned you not to spend too much time around Angkor Wat. Look what it's done to you. Come visit our orphanages for a few days and help us to shower and clean up the street kids and help cook for them!

 

01/23/2008 00:05:34

K15,

If you've never been to Cambodia, please don't write about it, and if you've never visited the homes of the entertainers, please don't call them "slutty".

Soch,

Don't you think you need a bit of counselling yourself?

K15,

Why aren't you calling Soch for a bit of civility?

Hahahaha.

01/22/2008 22:36:46

Hi soch,

For clarification, I never did say that "Cambodia is not ruled by corruption" -- I agree that it is.  What I disagree with is who we called 'corrupted' and 'immoral'.

We cannot pass judgement base on western values...

I agree with you come "we are not children here...let's see things for what they are, say what they are, and figure out what to do about it."

I am totally 'all ears', let's hear the solution(s)...

-M-

01/22/2008 22:15:08

ladyM, blackcoffee, et al

i understand your points.  you want to remain positive, focus on hope, the few exceptions, etc.  you mention the human rights activists and others who are working tirelessly to change the conditions of cambodia today.  i believe if you try to tell these same activists that cambodia is not ruled by corruption, that if you prefer only to point out the small rays of light to them, when they are trying everyday to tell you all that is screwed up over there,  i believe you would break their hearts.  because i believe they are screaming everyday for the world to open their eyes and see how supremely f**ed up it is in cambodia so that people will be incentivized, catalyzed to act.

come on, we are not children here.  and let's hope we're not here to be politically correct.  let's see things for what they are, say what they are, and figure out what to do about it.   

does it seem that k15 is predominantly negative in his columns?   certainly.  why?  could it be that it's b/c cambodia is in a predominantly negative state?  i could be wrong, if so, please, myp1t would be more than happy to offer the column structure to anyone who would like to offer a differing/alternate view on the conditions of our beloved homeland.

01/22/2008 21:36:15

Hi K15,
I see the disconnect.  It is our interpretation of 'corrupt people'.  'Corrupt people', to me, is the perpetrator, not the victims.
These victims (and I) see what you see as corruption as a way of life...
It is a moral/ethical issue if/when one has a choice between what is good and what is evil and that person knowingly chooses the evil path – such as those people who have the power (the government and their cronies).
In the case of the latter set of people we are talking about – Khmer in the fields, and the markets – do any of these set of people have choices? If the only choice we have is to let our children go hungry or to pay whatever ‘tips’, would we do it?  Having children of my own, I know exactly what I would do.  I think to label Khmer in the fields, in the markets, in legitimate businesses, and ‘most’ in the NGOs ‘corrupt’ or ‘immoral’ is harsh.
Until such time that there is abundance of choices for the people of Cambodia…let’s agree to disagree.
-M-

01/22/2008 21:05:28

First posted in the wrong column, i.e. The Changing Cambodia column
Lok BlackCoffee, I never ask or answer personal questions.
As I explained in the other column, if you disagree with anything I write, please
feel free to contradict me. I cannot see how my age, the number of times I have been to cambodia and the duration of my stays have any bearing on what I write. For example, Hun Sen ridicules Dr Ghai because he is Kenyan-born and Hun Sen says that Kenya is a country of thieves, calling Kenya's capital city "Nai-robbery".
Yet, Dr Ghai's reports on cambodia seem to be accurate, whether Dr Ghai is Kenyan-born, Vietnamese-born or Cambodian-born.

01/22/2008 20:37:22

Khemara,

Here's a personal question, how old are you and how many times have you travelled to Cambodia, and how long was each stay?

01/22/2008 19:23:14

One addendum to my reply to lady M.

Since government revenue is low because no business pays the real amount of taxes, duties, etc owed, there is not enough money to pay teachers who resort to asking for money from their students. These, from a very young age, learn to bribe people in authority, that only kids with enough money for private lessons get extra tuition and good grades. Underpaid traffic cops resort to extortion to supplement their income, e.g. by stopping drivers or motorcyclists at lights that turn red far too quickly or for ridiculous reasons. Firemen and ambulance drivers will let houses burn or patients die if not paid first by relatives of victims. Doctors and nurses in public AND private hospitals will provide care, only if paid extra. The list goes on and on. No one, not even the very young or the very old, is untouched by corruption as a participant and/or a perpetrator in Cambodia.

01/22/2008 15:56:42

Lady M,

If you went away with the false impression that “Cambodia is the most corrupted and Cambodians are the most money-minded group of people in the world?”, then I hope that these past messages will dispel that perception.

According to Transparency International and many people, Cambodia IS one of the most corrupt countries in the world. This does not mean that most Cambodians are corrupt. It just means that there are many corrupt people and that corrupt practices permeate all layers of society. If you are interested, please download this report.

Living Under the Rule of Corruption
An Analysis of Everyday Forms of Corrupt
Practices in Cambodia

http://www.csdcambodia.org/otherpub.html

You wrote:

I keep picturing these hard-working Khmer in the fields, in the markets, in legitimate businesses, and in the NGOs. It seems an injustice to include them in the 'many'.

Guess what? One, many of the corrupt people are hard-working although the general consensus is that CPP people are more hard-working than Funcinpec people, if one was to generalize. Second, Some of the people in the fields, in the markets, in legitimate businesses and in the NGOs are corrupt, too. In toto, that constitutes “many”. In villages, almost all the people in charge of communes do work in the fields, too, but expect “tips” to sign papers in land transactions and in many villages, there is no transparency in the accounts involving villagers’ contributions to common funds. In the markets, most, if not all stall holders pay inspectors and City or town hall officials “under the table” to minimize their taxes (“patang” =Khmer pronunciation of the French word “patent”)) instead of paying the official taxes. Legitimate businesses do exactly the same on a much, much bigger scale with not only City hall “patangs” but more importantly, with the assessors from the Tax Office. To be forced to pay a “fee” to get a piece of paper is one thing but to bribe in order to avoid paying the higher level of official taxes or customs duties means active participation in a corrupt practice.

Some people in certain NGOs are morally and financially corrupt, too by paying their directors and cronies hired as employees and consultants in the NGOS salaries and fees disproportionate to the funding, using official cars for private travel, concocting unnecessary overseas travel trips to cities inhabited by friends and relatives, etc.

If, after giving these explanations, I somehow reinforced your impression that I implied that many people in Cambodia are corrupt, then there is nothing I can do. Many means just that -“many”, not all, not most, not 51%, not only in Phnom Penh or in the cities and towns.

A column is only a personal opinion and people are free to disagree and reject it.

Lady M, I do not regard your comments as personal attacks. You have always played the ball, not the person. You have never called me names, made personal remarks about me.

Like Steung Songkae’s , your questions are quite difficult to answer and, if I do not respond, it’s because I am waiting for someone like Gnome to answer them.

01/22/2008 13:23:48

Hi K15,

Thank you for the clarifications, you are right, you never did write that "Cambodia is the most corrupted and Cambodians are the most money-minded group of people in the world?”  This is my feeling/conclusion after reading the article and the subsequent replies.  If I feel this way, I am thinking that others may draw the same conclusion...thus, my plead...

I keep picturing these hard-working Khmer in the fields, in the  markets, in legitimate businesses, and in the NGOs.  It seems an injustice to include them in the 'many'.

If I am one of these hard-working individual reading...it definitely does not provide me with any kind of motivation.

So, again, does the 'many' imply those in Phnom Penh?...since most visitors would have only visited Phnom Penh? Within certain sectors?  What about the millions under 21? All I ask is that we call them out.

I sincerely thank you for all you do...I hope you are not taking my comments as personal attacks...they are not.

I am a newbie, and appreciate your patience. 

I've learned so this last month...and looking forward to future insightful posts/articles from you and others.

-M-

01/22/2008 02:01:32

Hello Lady M.

May I provide one clarification, please because there may be a problem of misinterpretation and misunderstanding?

I have never written said that “Cambodia is the most corrupted and Cambodians are the most money-minded group of people in the world?”(your words from your last comment) . Gnome quite rightly referred to the Corruption Perception Index of Transparency International which measures the perceived corruption level among politicians and public officials in a country. This is a proxy for the level of corruption inside a country. If people in positions of authority from the very top down and across all sectors of society(e.g. to get a job in a garment factory, a bribe is required) are corrupt, then this country is perceived as quite corrupt, even if the great majority of people are only victims of corruption. In any case, I have never written or suggested that Cambodians were inherently corrupt, let alone among the most corrupt people in the world. For the past 5 years and not only in the Cambodia columns, I have not only implied, I have written that most Cambodian politicians and military people and business people are among the most corrupt people in the world, either as perpetrators or participants in corrupt practices.

There is no measure for money-mindedness, not even a perceptual measure anywhere in the world. Therefore, I was not comparing Cambodia with any other country. What I did write was “many people are driven by greed and that people have become more and more money-minded”(my words from this column). I was not referring to all or even most Cambodians. If you are looking for statistics, then I have none. However, if 100 objective, unemotional (i.e. non-emotionally involved) Khmers and/or foreigners who have direct experience with Cambodia and Khmers were asked to state the extent to which they agree with my statement in italics, the great majority of them would agree with it.

01/22/2008 01:24:29

If Veth Ratana was invited, she would not be a spectator,

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/18/nyregion/thecity/18camb.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

http://www.myp1t.com/forum/posts/id_1229/

How could Sok An agree to mill around with commoners? It’s like expecting God’s in-law to go for Kuy Teav a street stall. Just because Sok An’s title is not Samdech does not make him any less powerful than his in-law. And what kudos could there be to the co-founders of the Golden Coast Bank in LB?